Its Gotta Be Creative
Its Gotta Be Creative

Season 5, Episode 3 · 7 months ago

Albert de Symons Azis-Clauson, Co-Founder of UnderPinned


In this episode of Its Gotta Be Creative, we are joined by Albert de Symons Azis-Clauson, Founder of UnderPinned. Follow along as Albert documents his time at The Royal Ballet School, his craving for learning and how he saw a need to build a platform dedicated to giving freelancers all the tools and services to build a great freelance career around their passion. As always, this interview is filled with knowledge, insight, and of course, creativity.

Are you a freelancer interested in UnderPinned? Use code: ITSGOTTABECREATIVE at checkout for 50% off the UnderPinned Freelance Business Accelerator.

From a network of thousands of diverse freelancers, to tools for pitching, portfolios, project management, invoices and contracts, to education and support, UnderPinned is building better freelance careers.

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It's not to be on the show. My name is Albert, as is Courson. I'm the CEO of underpin. Welcome back to another episode of Guy to be creative. I'm your host, Ta Dre a Leo, and, as always, we have an amazing show ahead. To sit back black and joy the show. Other bit is basically a platform that teaches people how to freelance and it gives them all the tools they need to build a successful business around their craft. I mean, obviously I'm not necessarily directly a creative in the creative industries, but significant majority of our user base are people who are moving into freelancing within the creative sector and kind of suddenly hitting all those hurdles and sumbling blocks of what I'm really good at what I do, but now I have to actually build a business around it and start interacting with clients and navigating that whole new format of working, and that's what underpin is all about. What imagine there, especially right now, freelancing everything because of the pandemic. Did you see a big kind of bins on your face, like we saw a huge boots. It was weird for us as a business, because everyone says always must been amazing for business and it has been long term amazing for our business in as far as freelancing is going to be bigger and more established than it could ever have been otherwise. There's also a difficult time because most of our community, what we see, still struggling and lots of things were changing, and so there was this weird kind of balancing act of going we need to be support also of our community are having a difficult time, but also we're excited about the opportunity this is creating. And the way that I see it, this is basically split into two parts. Loads of people are sitting at home or wor sitting at home. Some still sitting at home trying to work out what they're going to do with their time. Board furloughed whenever it was, and so they using this time to start doing their hobbies and start getting more serious about their hobbies or started to think hey, this thing that I've been doing for a while that I'm pretty good at, maybe I can actually start to meet money. So we have this huge driving force of people wanting to freelance and getting used to this format of working at home, being a bit flexible, and on the other side, which I think is perhaps more exciting from a kind of commercial perspective. You have businesses who would never have worked with freelancers before starting to work with freelancers for two reasons. One, there's a massive push force for efficiency. They're having to furlow long term staff, so they're going, what are we going to do in the meantime? We eat to hire people to complete this project. Let's get in a freelancer to do this one off job. And they're going, actually, this is a really efficient format of for hiring people. But the other big thing that changed, I think is perhaps the biggest thing that's going to drive the future of work, is the mass adoption of communication technology as the primary format of communication. So now, even with people who are sitting in an office, the primary format of communication is still via video, chat and and digital communication, whereas previously it was the other way around, that was the secondary format. So we have this now, this big push, where swapping an employee out for a freelancer or having people come in and out of your work system in new workflows is incredibly easy because you just dropping them into a digital sphere and that kind of double sided effect that Covid is cause I mean I wouldn't say cold caused it by myself. Covid just accelerated it massively. Yeah, for sure. A massive number of companies want to use freelancers and way more people wanting to freelance. I think the most interesting fact that pops up for me was the height of the pandemic, when everything is going terribly in businesses are shrinking, there was a forty percent increase in the number of freelance jobs listed. So even at this point where everything else is declining, freelancing is signs of great mass. It's interesting you use outline because I work kind of two fields. I work in comic books and even before the pandemic are, you know, creators are everything. We're global. So even though we have offices in, you know, Atlanta, out and California, in and La and in New York, most of our business was always through, you know this at home digital video because, you know, our writer was in Italy, the artist was down in, you know, like South America. So for us it was kind of for our company, it was kind of like seamless on the transition on that side. But like the publishing side, you know, things were you know, you're buying the stuff in person obviously got totally, you know, messed up. So on that side it was kind of like, okay, we kind of understand how I do this. It works. Now we just have to figure out these other elements. And then the other instry working and Teme enterteam into like theme park design hotels, you know that type of I remember a meaning a year before the pandemic. My brother, one of our partners in our business, he couldn't make it to a meaning. Me My dad were in New York City and everything, meaning with their architects and he video chat. We're talking about, Oh man, this is like the future. He's up on the screen whatever, you know, and a year later, you know, like all of us are, our next meeting were, you know, designing stuff just like this and, you know, totally change. But just in a few months... went from being like, like you said, that secondary thing of like Oh, he couldn't make it, we could video him in, to now it's like bad, we really want to fly all the wayup to New York City. We could just jump on a call real quick talk it out and figure it out. And you're kind of how much the work environment has changed. Well, it's kind of interesting, I think, like another thing that's really important for creatives that's been triggered by this so so what you're talking about this idea that they are kind of different creatives all over the world doing different things that have already been communicating and doing stuff together and collaborate it. Now, one of the trends that I noticed to want ago is I was cooled at the agency trend, which is where when you go in higher an agency or any kind of creative content based company, whether it's design, marketing products, you don't hire the junior midlevel staff, like you don't go in and have a meeting with his junior midlevel stop, you go in and have a meeting with the three directors. You have twenty five years experience. The eats as are setters, are right. They're the people that convince you to hide this this Butub and what I noticed about ten years ago, much more so five years ago, is these agency selling to go. Why do we have twenty thirty people sitting in house all the time when we can build our Dream Team for every single one of these projects? Like the senior people are the ones that are driving that, and I've started to see this grow. And what covid did, which is really interesting, is it is started to get companies that don't have the agency model to do the same things. So companies where the linear model is more usual. They started school. Well, let's create this hybrid workforce and what that means, which is really exciting for the creative sector, is that all of these creatives who had to kind of make a choice, don't want to work from the agency world to this I one or free dancing or go into linear employment, into one of these embedded in one of these big companies, can now do all of them at the same time and so they can now access companies but they couldn't access before. It's a way scary time, but I think it's one of those times they're like once we get figured out. I think it really is like a new era for a lot of creators and a lot of awesome products are really coming out of this pandemic and new ways of doing things, which I always say it because you always see it's like, Oh, why couldn't we get there before? You know, we found ourselves trapped in a box. You know, like you know a lot of times, a lot of times it's always takes like, oh shit, now some stuff, let's try and do something new. That one more point. It's really quickly on. That is, I am sure, thing that really needs to keep it needs to catch up with this is the kind of just kind of infrastructure policy and welfare support side of things, because you have all these people moving into this new context of work and you have like no established policy or frameworks or support for these people. So like accessing like financial products, access seeing like support or welfare systems or whatever it is that is needed. Like that system is not there yet and it's not developed enough. So it's really exciting that you said that will these oportunities of popping up, but it's also creating a lack of security of a lot of people who are going into this this kind of this set and moving into this format of work, and that really needs to kind of catch up with the way the way that people are working. Yeah, I totally agree with you. That's that's fun our so you have an interesting story. Let's go back a little bit. Okay, now, when you're a kid and everything, I would imagine if I wanted anything from this shell doing it. No one ever ever expected to be where they are right now doing what they're doing. So I would imagine similar story for you. So how the what was your dream back when you're a kid? You know, I was like a fireflayer. I'm going to be a chef or something like that. Like what was that dream for you back then? I was going to be a ballot answer. So when I was a real kid, I me and I have three brothers, four boys, Gretestosterone Fuel House, my poor poor mother. But when we were all very, very young, like to three years old, I think, like it's quite normally nursery to do like coordination classes and I listen to music and do movement and stuff and like learn how to use your body, and my mother always just thought they were just a bit shit. So she was like goold to go and do ballet, you're going to go and listen to classical music, which is like good for your brain, and you're going to let learn how to move your body and like a graceful and elegant way. Not of US really cared at the time and like we weren't old enough to know or care what it was at all anyway. So we just we went. We put a Leot odds on her. That went sty bad and I basically just didn't start pasty, I think because I didn't really realize I could stop or liked had never crossed my mind that I would because I started doing it so young. It was like something I did. Right. Yeah, I got to like maybe four or five and I remember going watching a ballet of my parents taken me. I may be like him man, like I want to do that, like that's what I'm going to do and I'm older, I'm going to be that dude on the stage and I'm gonna go and do that, and I just kind of never did anything else. Yes, that was that was what I want to do when I was a kid, but I was all right, that's that's we haven't gotten that as yet, so let's get oead. That's going to so. So you went to what Royal Ballet? Score? Right, yeah, I was a roll bannice. Yeah, okay. So what was what's the pair? For people who don't know, they're kind of you know, they as a kid. So when I was like a really little kid, I was doing it on the side. I was going to normal school. I would do quite on about every week, you know, five to eight hours a week for a relatively young age and they got to kind of eight nine, or when I maybe seven or eight, I got like a scholarship for my dance school and like then everything was free. So I was going to do even more classes and then even more stuff, and then when I was maybe nine, I think, I got offered to be like Billy Elliot on the...

West End. So let's go and be which is incredibly lucky that I didn't do it, because I cannot sing to the point where in my full school choir I was asked to mine. They did that thing where they go like someone in this area is like really, Oh, yeah, yeah, like, yeah, guys just sitting until it narrow it down to me and were like, Albert, can you just stop singing and just pretend like that was embarrassing anyway. So it's luck I didn't do but any I wanted to go and do this the role bad thing. So the first step is you start off by doing this thing called junior associates, which is where you go and do like a weekend class. It's like introductions, signing to introduce you to the way the raw ballet teach ballet, and the reason it's an important step is that when you learn ballet like a normal valleys will, like your local balley school, you tend to advance quite quickly. And then when you go to the raw balley school you start from scratch, like seeing you don't come in, you're not cut, you not come in and do pirouettes and cool stuff. You come in it's like we're going to start from the absolute basics again, I'm going to build you up as if you've never done it before. And so you started in sequel juniorssociates, which is that when you're still in primary school, and then when you're eleven you're going to secondary school. They say you know, you go and you go and apply for the full time thing. If you don't get into the full time thing, there's a there's a medium associates or and Intermedia Associates, going a senior associates later on. But I got straight into the Royd balace. So I went and did full time from the age of eleven as a binancer. So it's kind of quite similar to a lot of support specialist schools as well. You do like an x amount of time doing academics and an x amount of time doing ballet. So it was usually a four force player for hours, ademics for hours about it and then they've been sometimes an extra couple of hours of ballet or rehearsals and you'd have to do your own stretches and do homework and stuff like that. And it was a boarding school. So I was just there all the time, just doing that living, thinking he was totally normal life and it turns out not, and that's that's kind of that's what my spirits as. When did you kind of start making the switch when you do say, okay, maybe I don't want or do you still? Do you still do that or was I still dance accasionally? But so it kind of when I was about thirteen fourteen, I already started to think this seems quite narrow. Like I was always like a very I was the kid my mom used to say when I was used to walk me to school, it would you like four hours to walk school three minutes away, because I would stop and stare at everything and ask questions about it. And my mind is always looking for stuff to think about and solving and and ask about. And when you're doing ballet, like I love the discipline and the focus in the ballet class, like I love that bit of it. I Love Ballet, I love dancing, I love the the difficulty that I love to use my body, I love the creativity, etc. But then, when I was outside of by the class is going, I want to have the opportunities to all these other things and I can't because I'm here. And so I kind of started to develop this idea that I actually I want to go and travel, I want to go and do all the sports, I want to go and study more seriously, I want to go and try all these things and work out exactly what I want to do, because it's always just been assumed that I want to do this, because I've never really explore anything else in detail. And I think that the ballet school has a bit of a problem where they lose people who are interested in other things because they don't give you the opportunity to go and do it. But, but, but it's like it's so strict, so discipline that and I was like, I decided I didn't want to do it anymore. So when it's going to exploit other things, and then I had this other hurdles go through all do I keep doing it a bit, because it's really weird thing when you go from doing something at a high level to doing it as a hobby, because there's a big mental shit and I decided I didn't want to do that. So I went cold Turkey, like aiden it around GCSEC time when you stids to do important exams. I was like I'm done out, so I quit and I left and I went to normal school and I didn't do another I didn't do a Balty class, I didn't point my foot for five it off that and I went to normal school and Im my first day there I was so excited about like just experiencing your things, doing other things. I'm going to a big all boys, comprehensive school, which is a very different experience from a tiny mixed ballet school. WHAT'S FOCUS? Test Arfter aw Fr, like lots of angry young men who are dealing with life issues, and I was of the well, the ballet, whereveryone's just like working hardle time. And I remember the first experience I found super strange was day start at nine, finished at three, and I was like what this is? This can't be your whole day, like this is crazy. I got so much time to do whatever I want. So I started throwing myself into absolutely everything. I've tried like every sport you could possibly imagine, and I read everything I get my hands on. I tried every coby like there was no stone I was going to leave on Ti and having like a where was before, like when I was doing ballet, the only real created that let and I had outside of ballet was like gaming, playingloads of video games. Can't like video content around gaming, creating a websites around it like that was my outlex. Is Easy to do an isolation or by myself at home, but now it's like just the world was open. It was like open Pandora's box and let me just touch and play with everything that's inside, and that's that. Yeah, that's what happened to it. I kind of had a similar kind of a backwards type thing with it because for me, I always was like, okay, I'm gonna go worke as, I theme parks if that's what I want to do now stop and...

...anytime one of my friends would find me, like in school whatever, I would always be designing stuff, learning about that. But after a while like hey, maybe I should kind of go do more things and also simul to you, like I played a hit ton of video games and everything. Like you know, so easy to kind of get lost in that face, right, you just go back, turn on the TV and like you're in that room and then you kind of escaped to a whole different world, right, like playing assassin screed. All of a sudden you're now in that world, different plant called do whatever game you're playing, right. And for me at the time, because I was just sitting down doing that, I gained a crap, rap Lee and then then I was like, Hey, I was always interested in sports, but like maybe I should go back and try to like lose all this weight and everything. So I went ended up losing like over too or yeah, like just a hundred pounds whatever. But for me, I then yeah, it was kind of crazy and a few in a like a year, mostly for this girl. But you know, that's a different story altogether. But yeah, I got it works right. So, but I then kind of like got really focused it on boxing and everything. But then when that kind of shifted, I was like, Oh, this is really fun whatever. But Sim of to you was like man, there's all these different things. Let me read this, let me do that. Well, what were some of the things that you started exploring after that? Like, you know, were you traveling? where? You you know? Yeah, so, I mean I was like sixteen, so I wasn't like I went to you or I a bit of traveling in Europe. I'm based in London. I grabbing Mondon, but the like. I try everything. So in sports wise, and did everything from like crossfit, park or climbing, boxing, rugby, football, running, athletics, high arm, long jump, pole vole shot put, like javelin. I did like fucking water polo, likely, like all serious part of it was crazy. Yeah, that one I did not stick too very long. Did like karate, Kong Fu Jiu, Jitsu, kickboxing, MMA, like everything I could get my hands on. I did it for like six months and I still do. I still try and try things really regularly, but now I'm so busy all the time it tends to be just like a couple hours of the gym in the mid of the day, but I love just trygle this thing and the other side of hand all these other hobbiesonems explores. I did like I started getting as a software development like kind of more broad spectrum engineering. So it's getting to like design. used to make videos, or us to make, like do loads of photography. I used to like make websites people. I used to like, I'm I did loads of like graphic design stuff or and I compete for graphic design competitions, like I try. There's nothing I could like. I would see. If I'd see something, I would like. Yeah, I'll get that. It go. Yeah, I'd in like electronic music. Like I just wanted to do everything and find out what I liked, and I think like the best way to learn what you want to do is to do loads of things. And like I would down slowly, and I'm going on ballet. Did the exact opposite. I spent my whole times in one thing and didn't get to do any of these other things. So when I suddenly got to do everything, all these other things, but I was old enough to kind of engage with them in quite a meaningful way. So, like I would like try and learn an instrument for like six months, I would just but I'd be actually be able to throw myself into it. And I started to work out what it is that I enjoyed, and I realize that the things that I would ripen was really enjoying was this like come into a situation that makes you feel totally uncomfortable, that you know nothing about, like keep your head up, stay confident and solve it, like how do you do it? And I love that bit of it. I love that first three months, the process of going I'm in a room where everyone here knows Kung Fu but me, and I'm going to drive and learn how to do go through and all I want to do is be confident, be relaxed and focus like fucking hard until I can work out exactly how to do it. And I love that process and I want to see that with everything and like, in many ways that's exactly what I still do now, doing entrepreneurialism and stuff like. But it's put yourself in a position where your super uncomfortable and you don't know how to do something and then try and nail it as quickly as possible. I found the same thing. I found I'm very similar on that aspect, and this is a weird kind of way to think about this, but a few months ago I kind of landed on this where video games and stuff, right when you're playing like minecraft, those first few days when you're like getting your supplies and like building your house everything. I always like love right. That's like the best. My friends always may fun, because after that I kind of like drop off. I'm like well, like I figured out I have, you know, we have food, Ye have the farm set up. It's kind of like boring now and a few months ago kind of hit me and I was like that's kind of how I am with with certain things. I love that beginning stage of like learning about it, like I don't know this. It's really funny because there's this Voyo is a whole load of viral videos going around at the moment which is like you know that they're saying masters of Jack of all trades, master of not, and I did originally saying it's a Jack of all trades. Master of none is a better of master of better than the master of one, and like that was the original saying and I think, like, I mean, I don't know what that what that means to us right now. Make me think about was like the bit of getting two grips with something is what I find exciting and I don't tend to take things to super high levels, like I'm I'm good enough using my body. I'm good enough using my brain that I can get something to like a good level quit pretty quickly. Once I get it to a good level, I tends to go. I'm not... going to spend ten years making it perfect, because that's what I did with ballet and I just I know I don't want to do that anymore with anything, except in this. I'm like completely and utterly enamored with it. So I'm I'm I'm super happy to go. I'M gonna get pretty fucking good at boxing, but I'm not going to go and try and become a professional boxer, and I like that. But of the process. I want to collect those those supplies. I'm going to build my farm. I want to be like this settlement looks pretty good now. I'm not going to turn into a palace, but I'm happy I've done that bit of it. Yeah, now I feel that I see I learned the hard work boxing, I really and it's just my person. I kind of get like if I want to do this, it's like one hundred percent. I'm in on this, like I'm going to do this for real and for boxing. For some reason that one just really brought me in. But I got to the point where I was going a little too extreme, to the point where I'll you heard your back and neck and everything, and now now it's like, Oh, you can't do it at all. Right, so like you have to figure out like where do you? Where does that line? You have to know your mind of like W I am I doing this as like a hobby? Am I doing this as a professional, you know, career, your and stuff. That's, I feel like, for a lot of freelancers and I guess even in the pandemic it kind of got to that point where it's like, okay, what is this? What do I want to do with this? This is a big question that we get a lot, which is like when do I make the jump like a what point is this no longer something I'm doing on the side and is this Sonny I'm going to do full time or something I'm going to really commit to? And I think that process of making that decision is really tough and when you do it in sports, it's like actually, probably like they're at. They're are like physical limitations that repere you to take things more seriously. It's like if you keep pushing yourself without any sort of profession support, you're going to break your body or yeah, well, like the yeah, physically go further without putting more time in words, with this really weird and unknown bridging of between like, okay, what I've got a job where I'm doing something and I want to do this, but at what point do I start? And what I've noticed is, in my view, the sole reason for that confusion and distortion and fear is like a lack of knowledge and infrastructure. And I think the what it boils down to, and I'd be I'd be impressed you can find someone of that. This is not true of no one has ever left education or full time employment being confident with starting a freelance business. Like, even if you studied business at university, Leave University and like, I don't know how to some freelance business and and that kind of that complete lack of access creates this total fear around making that jump. And it shouldn't be a scary jump. It's going to be difficult, like something easy, and it's going immediately going to be successful. But what I think is unacceptable is the people currently don't even know what the constituent elements of success are and what it tends to mean is that people focus really acutely on this is what I'm good at, ie draft design or when development, whatever it is, or photography. So I'm going to focus really hard on my skill set and I built build a portfolio and do free work or like just try and get stuff on on my belt. And that's not how you build success a freelancer. And I think that in the same way, when you want to go from boxing in a in a you know, boxing with a punch bag, to boxing in a gym with her and spiring with professionals, then he used to be the same kind of coaching access for like, I want to actually start build a freelance business, and that's why to make the transition, and that as very much more underpinpots. What's kind of dive into that rate. So when did you start saying things yourself, Hey, I want to hang up that this. What did you go to? The universal form was like your degree, and I studied philosophy of science. Okay, cool. And then when did you start getting idea of like, Hey, I want to do this underpinn thing. What was the steps in your mind of so doing so? I did. I found it like this is the fourth business that I've technically been a founder of. I found a charity as well and I want a business strategy and public relations freelance consultancy as well, which work like small to medium sized businesses, mostly in tech science, based in creative sectors. So I went to University of philosophy science, loved it, ended up becoming really passion about logic and linguistics and falling in love with computer science on the side and just like getting into that whole world and at the same time, as like the fantis businesses and it's charity, was building this freenance practice and my freelance practice became quite successful of Sony, pretty good money doing it. But I remember acutely the first phase just being really, really difficult and I'm not, know, being a really good at this job. I don't understand why I'm not being successful and like learning, fumbling around and learning how to build a success and freelance business, which is ironic because I'm going into tell businesses how to do better at their own business. Yeah, yeah, it's like but I, you know, I got agree with it and eventually kind of like understood it, was starting to became become quite successful with it, but the kind of two elements that really termed me so underpinned was one doing this journey myself and seeing how difficult it was. But to and I think which this was more important, I ran a media and Arts Company which helps young and emerging creatives established their career. So basically we run a vents, exhibitions parties. It was partly an excuse just throw mad parties all over the UK, but it was also like working with nods of amazing creatives and helping the bill careers and out of what they would do it. And usually it meant either helping them commercialize their arts...

...or the stuff they were producing or help commercialize their skills to support the arts. It was like rather working in a coffee shops do are you commercialize your design skills with companies and then you use that spore your are and it was was really successful. I would hundreds of, eventually thousands of different people and it started off with fine artists and then it was kind of performers and then illustrators and then copywriters and poets and journalists and consultants and designers and web developers and engineers and then financial advisors and eventually I was sitting down a fucking account and accountants being like how do I build my freeals business? I'm like, of all the people you think would know how to build a business, you do. You did account of button first, and I was like this is a really big problem, because everyone I'm meeting is sick of what they do. Like their skill, their craft is amazing. They're passionate, they're interested, they're excited, they're hard working. They're fucking clueless. And I was like how, why are they so clueless? And I look back at it, I was like the common theme here is that no one's left education or employment having ever been told how to go to freelance business. Yet they're amazing at the craft they do and it's like normal, because you know, we aren't. We're we grew up in a society that was lining up in your employment was the way you do it, like freelancing, and it's modern format. I he's like skilled creative freelancers is a very new phenomenal, like hasn't really become a big thing. I mean since two thousand and eight, since the last one nutcraft. That that's actually what I really the kind of the match stick point. And before that it was like something people did if they couldn't get a job. Right, like that's that's the narrative, and so I'm the pin was this idea that, okay, I can help these people on an individual basis. Great, but that's not particularly scalable. I love running this company and during these parties, but like this is a passion projects and I think, yeah, I need that. What is the next thing that I'm going to do? And Me and my business partner sat down and we kind of work through it over a number of kind of weeks and we really started to get into the detail. Okay, well, the things that are missing here at three folds. Education, novel one. People don't know what they're doing and I don't know where to go to ask questions. Community. They don't have people to go and ask. They don't know who to talk to you. They're completely on their own. What they're doing this technology. There's no infrastructure designed for freelancers. You want to build a banging website, go squares based got a ways. You want to build a banging mailing list, go to mail Chim, go to hub spot. You want to build a banging crm, go to hub sport, salesps like if you want to do a specific department's function, there are loads of amazing options because the massive SASS companies that have been built over the last twenty thirty years have been built for the same economy which is arisen out of the the creation of that modern communication technology. Now that's great. Communication Technologies is allowed for the Sime to thrive. But now communication technologies got so good that we can devise that Labor we can, we can, we can break it down even further to create these hyper efficient simes that are freelancers. But freenancers don't have departments. They do two things. They do their craft and they do their business. So they don't want five different software systems to do five different aspects their business. They want one place to find their work, to manage their work and to get paid. And the technological infrastructure on that is not that complicated, but it is difficult to understand. I once you can build it, it's not difficult to use. The user experience is very simple because you don't need a million features. You need really good features to send in voices, send contract manage projects, fine work crm systems in the generation portfolio development and then all the community and learning stuff and bundles around it. So under him was as narrative of okay, we know we can teach you for how to do this, but that's how good? Not, because then they have to go and do it themselves. So we need to give them people for support and accountability and they need to give technology to actually be able to go in enact it. Then, opinions system is basically an accelerator program which teaches you everything you need to notice how to be a freedlancer, brings you into a community and introduces to a bunch of other people who are doing the same thing, doing similar things you can mental you who could collaborate with you, and then gives you the technology to actually go in and acted. So by the time you finished accelerates program, you sent an invoice, a contract, you've managed a project, you found a client, like you've done all the constituent elements and actually building a business and you're ready to go and continue a build. And so this this idea that was born out of working with the Woll these amazing people, and like always being embroiled in this creative world and suddy going. Why are these people? Know? Why call these people be successful and then on the pin was was the answer. Hey, guys, as you can tell, al we're super passionate about freelancers and helping give the tools to you to upgrade your freelance business side of things. So if you want to learn more about underpin, head to underpincom. Use our discount code. It's got to be creative. All caps for fifty percent off three lance business accelerator program all the details are below, so check it out. Really honestly brilliant. Be Honest, from working on my side and seeing all, especially in the entretamery and theme parts, a lot of times you you load up your team with freelancers, right, you like hires from like hey, come over, you know, you do all some rock work. We have to do this, you know, skull rock or something. You know, we need you all contract for like six months or whatever. But there was there's always this problem of like again, where's that infrastructure? Now I have seven team...

...different websites and going to the look for work. So one something that just brings stuff together. I think a lot of people don't realize how impouring the user experience and just user interface on things are and how much this, like this is everything point, because we are kind of like in this weird hybrid market where, you know, as a company raising investment, right, you have like customer facing investors and then you have like the others facing investors. And like business facing software is all like like to dark blue software that, yeah, kind of like it was made in an excel spreads. Yeah, and then I forebside, but it's like highly functional. And then customer facing shit is like super engaging and dynamic but has lots of like twiddly bits that are not necessary for functionality. Now we operate in this weird space where, by and large, freelancers behave like customers. Right, they want to have that level of engagement and interaction, but they also need that simplistic functionality of a business. So it's this weird thing of like user experience is important for freelancers and it's not as important for simes. It is still but it's less important for like enterprise companies. Like you look at some of the big enterprise companies, like you look at their self, when it's like this is like fundamentally hard to use, like you have your trained professionals whose sole job is to learn how to use this software, because it's so functional, and that's not the case in our at the spection. It's like we have to create this thing and up we're really game a flying the process, like you build points when you're when you're building your business, like were teaching you how to build this thing where the gratification points, the points of success, are not just landing clients and getting money, they're also doing the things they're going to help you land better clients. So you're you're game of fine, and you're building the whole process of building a business rather than just this like one interaction of where's the money out? So I'm with you one hundred percent on that, because right now me and my partners were designing a game of fight, kind of visual content, comic thing, and the I don't, I think a lot of people don't understand how important that that game of fight, fight, and I think it's really come probably to our experienced playing video games and understanding that gratification of you know, like unlocking a new gone before you get to the next level or those things that keep you engaged and you know, kind of give you those many rewards before you get to that. The bigger, you know, defeating so so you know, like they actually think, like gamification is often the word that I think there's a bit I think there should be another way for it, because people who can play video games. I feel you on that. Yeah, yeah, like when you look at it from the outside, like you told people would know games and I don't want to play a video game to get yeah, and I totally yeah, no, yeah, I know. Every time, like I present in everything, you're like, well, video game, like no, no, it's not a video game. It's not, you know, you're not playing a video game. It's just it's like the reward system. It's the how you how you feel like you accomplish something when you log on. Like it there's something more about it. It's weird because there's so much game of keys going on and on all way. You know. You Go, you get your call fee, you get your points and you're like Oh, like, I got a reward and whatever. So it's always like Tarkey or something. You go there, you buy stuff, they give you points from here, like here you got five dollars because you're spent probably tenzero dollars on your store. You know, congratulations, here's your five dollars, and it's interesting like two people understand that. But then when you throw it in different ways at them, they're like, oh well, it's a video game, I don't want to do that. You're like no, no, it's not a mute game, it's a new way of rewarding people. So I think that's actually it was about creating the incremental progress right, like this is the thing that people really struggle with. You give someone the big, tallest and they'll never complete it, because someone the whole series of small tasks. If they get to go she yeah, I take that off my to do list. Like that's how you get somebody to go through a different process. I'm building a business. Isn't a group process? Like, yes, you need to have shit. I the incremental but it's just like hey, you at know the millionaire. Yeah, but you're doing really well and you look at all these things that you've achieved and who the rewards you go for achieve that really comes from the sport side, you know, like when you're setting out a new thing, it's like, okay, I want to be able to run a mile and you know, at this time and at first it's just like I need to get to that tree right there. You know, and then you're like okay, let me run there and you're like Bam, I did that. Okay, let me get to the next three or the garbage. Can only do that. And you know, I think it's sports. It kind of makes sense for a lot of people who's in that because that's how that's how you kind of do it in your head. You're like, okay, I want to do hundred fifty pounds. are like I want to eat pounds, I want to do this. Let me get to seventy five, let me do ten, and you're like, well, you know, I'm at ten. Leave two more. Let me do like eight more, let me do six more, you know, and you get to that point where you're like, Oh, I did that, I hit that goal, and you know, I think it's really really you get that physical response rise and like if you're doing if you talk about it in sport, it's your bad. Like I know I have a cheek something because I'm really tall. Yeah, like, yeah, yeah, I can't hard go any phot and I think with things that are less like, particularly with things that are what I mentally stimulatory, like you need to be able to be told that you've achieved something because otherwise you don't necessarily recognize it naturally, and I'm like it's really difficult to...

...reward yourself for success that is like don't really demulcate what it was like. Well, I don't know what I've done quite yet. So they told like you have actually hit am Allstone, and that is an important one. You did reach that trash can in this but yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, it's in. I was reading an article recently and there it was a this guy from my firmachineers, Disney's like design division for the theme parts of stuff, and they're talking about the first time that they did it like a game of five ride. They didn't realize that you needed that like response back to people, so they didn't have like a vibration in the controller to it feels like you're actually like launching something right. They didn't have they didn't have like the lasers on the wall, so you couldn't even see where you're shooting, and then when you did shoot something, nothing happens, so you didn't know like the Retard get blows up or whatever, and they had to go back in and redesign it. And he was talking about the importance of those you know, those elements of feeling it, the vibrations. Okay, felt like something went out, you could see where it's hitting, snack, you can aim, and then the reward back to you. That is so important. Find is so weird when people, when I work out with people in the like, don't tell me how long it's been. It's like I need to know how much I progress. Who is to know how far? And I know I've gone left and I think it's the same thing. Look, you go through something, you don't find out how you did till the very end. During it you have no baroiser of what you what you're doing in the house, yeah, being or what you're doing well or not. The Nike Training App I don't know if you use it or if you've ever been had used it for running. Actually, yeah, yeah, oh, that was like I used to use that one a lot. Um, but they do a really good job at like kind of giving you those those milestones. They had get hit you with achievements and everything like Oh, you know, you worked out three times a week or you worked out on this day. They also do that time so you understand, like hey, like, you did this work, this is what you've done, you started here to where you're at now and again, Super Portan, and I think it's really smart for for freelancing, because that's preting thing is such a all encompasing, all the time thing. Right, like when your freelancer, you're like at home, right, like I'm in my trusting now, like we're all in our at home offices. It's like where's the line between work and you know, it's Saturday, we're recording this right, or Saturday I'm going to go design something, I'm going to go put together a pitch later on, and it's like where is especially when it's your own business and freelancing is you know, to you if you're in the business. Right, it's kind of like where do you that line merges right and it's I'm so glad that I'm back in the office, like this is my office and like a coming back differentiation is really nice, but it's true. Like the other thing is you never know when to stop and start, and I think we live in a society where we glorify valley CEO. I get up before I am and go yeah midnight and I work continuous to throughout the whole period and drink green juice. It's like, Hey, that's not healthy. Be Yeah, fast, fast, APS, you're an absolute liar. Actually, like that doesn't make you better than anyway. Like the most successful people I know work like a few hours a day really efficiently and then have some meetings and like that's how they work. Like you, you don't. Shouldn't be rewarded for like for being, you know, Victorian, factually work. Yeah, it's crazy, says I always think every time. Like my friends are like do like, do you see this El? They like wake up at three am. They don't go to sleep till like, you know, one o'clock in the morning. They drink like this weird juice with like red ball in it, and I'm like again, like you said, they're a fucking liar. I don't believe them. Right, I want like also, like all, they also have time to work out. I like. They also have time to run their business. They also have this like when do they reach oart their batteries? They're lying. They don't listen to it, and it's so true. Like people try to like dove pots of the luxury and panth right, like yeah, people, people totally underestimate how much easier it is. To have a weird lifestyle. If you're super wealthy and everything's done for you, then it. Yeah, it's like I do a lot of the time live on like a weird regime. Right, do you get up at five? Five dots in Gay Straes the office, but I take two and a half, three hours for lunch where I work out for a couple of hours and I take a relaxed lunch and I almost always start working by six PM. So, like, I and I don't do that every day. Like when people say to me, all you get up a five days, like, if I did that, I'd be dead. Like I let's ground party on the weekends, let's go to dinner with my friends. I have a social life. Like if I woke up a five o'clock every single morning without fail, I'd be dead. It's like I woke up at eight morning because I was tired and I realized my body needs to rest. Like it's okay to do that. Yeah, my my friends always give me shit to like, Oh, you wake up at five am every day. I'm like, I wake up early. Sometimes I do wake up at five am and like I get up and I go work out and stuff. I was like most of the time I wake up and I'm like, okay, my boy, my body's more sleep. Like this morning I was like, my body's more sleep, I need to go sleep more. I'm going into the week like I know, or whatever. Or Oh, my back, he's hurting me because I have these bad things in my back. Whatever. I have to ice it, you know, I have to take care of myself. I can't just, you know, the CEO, the Silk Bay CEO, be like Oh, push through the pain, you know, do this. So I'm like you are going to destroy yourself, like you. You cannot sustain that for any length of time other than maybe a few weeks and then or just like not be particularly happy and be particularly Bossy, like I'm they're been periods of... life, I feel, like two months of like an intense regime. Yeah, realize I like deeply unhappy and I haven't liked done anything social or done anything nice but myself at all in those periods. Yeah, I feel that when I was like boxing really hard corn everything, I would be like, Oh, you and I can't come out to the time or whatever. I have to go to sleeps. Have to wake up or you're going to that restaurant, I can't eat that, so like I'll just stay home back here. So the so many elments that you know, people don't think that go into your life and your business. That really kind of translate into, you know, everything, everything you think. The fundamental point is, I've been talk about Freedis specifically, is that it is hard to create that balance and you I think people punish themselves for not working really hard. And this is why I say that, like these incremental progress points are important because if you wake up and like one of the things I really like to do is before I go to bed, is right, three, twenty five really small tasks to doing the morning that will make the business like a little bit better. So if my whole day is terrible and unproductive, I know that I started doing some things that I can look back and be like, okay, I've done something, so it doesn't matter. I think creating those incremental progress points, those tasks this there's to do list which are small, like micro tasks, which you know you've done. So you're never going like I need to keep working, I can't stop sens to things like a shuld I have done something, I have progressed and the other side of that is I think people get terrified to take time off and it's like when has taken twenty four hours ever really genuinely impacted your life negatively? Have? No, just usually made you a bit more than everything, a bit better, like yeah, it has. So I did you just take a day off? Man, yeah, I used to be a head chef for six years and that whole industry is like, you know, work, work, work, work, work, don't stop. Wake up in the morning, yeah, go out and party, get back in the kitchen the next morning. You know, like I had friends, my girlfriends, this chef, and she was telling you some of these stories. I was like, Oh, I am so glad, I know that life is fairly sure I could. Yeah, it is brutal, brutal, brutal, brutal, and it only recently did, especially actually because of the pandemic, the people like finally get a time to stop and be like hey, maybe that wasn't sustainable what we're doing, maybe we should change it up. So do you have that sort of infrastructure or those kind of rewards with the things on underpin to kind of show people how to almost find that life work balance, because I, like you said, those little tasks. I make my bed every single morning because I know if the whole day goes shit, I know I come back and it feels like well, I did something right, like this feels good to get in same thing. Yeah. So, like when I wake up, I know it's like okay, this is the test guy to do. Let me do it. I'm already in my mind. Now let me go work out. I feel like I've already liked succeeded on two things. Right, I'm like ahead of you people through the day. So do you have some sort of thing on underpin that kind of helps people be like, Hey, you need a healthy balance here. So when we're doing the yes, like a lot of his being built. There's a little more of a game of case side is being built on top of o the infrastructure which is now complete. So, like Jinda Two thousand and twenty two, there's a huge update where a huge new point system is being introduced. Loads about a cool stuff, but currently in the accelerator program that's where it exists most. So the accelerator program is like hey, how do make a portfolio? Portfolio is not one task. Portfolio is like ten different things that you need to do and think about to get into make a good portfolio, and so we break them down until these incremental, tiny steps and actually walk you through doing them and and you get to take them off and get rewarded as you go through. So I have we haven't like done it in terms of time wise yet. So it's not like saying like go take a break. We better get down into these really small chunks and give you time frames of how long it should take it to complete them. And then in all of the classes we spend a lot of time talking about management of the time and how to do that. So it's kind of like done in a knowledge base way and then done in terms of in terms of tasks. But in the future, when me introduce point systems, we're going to really starts break down a bit more. But I think the key thing here is having oversight of what you need to do next allows you to film more confident about what you're doing now, so that when you don't know what the next step is, but you know there is a next step, you're in this panic mode where you can't stop because you need to get as far into this dark room as you can try and find a gold neg yeah, if you could see the golden at the end. It's like, Oh, well, actually have to take ten steps. I'm okay if I we take three today because I can take another two tomorrow. Yeah, that that having oversight of the whole journey from the beginning is really useful and having that mental space. That's awesome. That this is. This sounds really, really like available to it for a bunch of creators, because I know how you know there's show many awesome cratis out there, but they struggle with this side to it so much that it, you know, if they can never break through to like the level that they really should be able to get to. Well, this is the irony, right, and I know this is a horrible thing to say, but it is true. You give me the worst designer in the world, I'll get of a job. Now give me the best desire in the world and I'll show them how to not be able to get a job. Like your skill in lots of ways is it...

...relevant to that process. Because if you're amazing and articulating the value you could deliver to businesses, but terrible of the craft, like the able first job, you're not going to build a bank. Your career like your business is not going to be bang back, but you'll be able to get a job. You do the sister. And so if you're good at what you do and you can communicate your value effectively and understand all of that process of procedure, which is not complicated, just requires some of lucidation. Like, imagine how bang you could be. And like I know freelancers who aren't Tenk yeah, and I know freelancers who aren't three hundred Kyah, and the difference is not how good they are their craft. The difference is how good they are building a business around their craft. And like that's the shit you need to get on if you one of these success kind of shifts at their last section, which is really kind of advice, I think. I think we're going to do this in two parts. First, what would be your advice to that kid who is, you know, very focused on something and they're giving it all? That's a really, really us. I think exploring other things is important. I think, like you know, what actually is that no matter how focused you are anything ever, there will always be value derived from bringing stuff from outside into it. You are like, even if you're like a sprinter, even if it's a thing that's like basic, like there's not that much, not many variable parts to it. Going and studying history for a bit and understanding like how to think in a different way can be incredibly valuable to your springs and what's a promotion of your spends. Like there is so much value that can be drawn from tangential experience this work having and I think I but I think I think the caveat to that in terms of when you doing something really in a really disciplined way, is just doesn't necessarily mean you can't continue doing that discipline thing. But I think you need to find the time to go and explore the things. And I know this, you know will probably go against the advice of like the various teachers who do are in these old coaches, but like when you get that summer break and you do have to have a rest, have a rest, but also going to do the sports that you told you were allowed to do and go and I'd try and read the subjects you are you never have the time to give it go because, you know, maybe you do break your leg and you are fucked. But I if you don't go and give those things a go, like you will never learn and be able to have those opportunities. And Charles are, you probably won't break it leg. Like you know. They'll be a few unlucky people, but there's always fewer people and I think they're like giving yourself the opportunity to expand your mind may actually make you love what you do more and we'll take away that doubt of why? You know, I don't have a choice, because we've all had that. I think everybody will experience at some point that dread of turning up a training session or an out class but then leaving it really happy and having loved it. And that dread comes from the fact that you do this thing day and day out and if you give yourself the opportunity to go and find out that you love it compared to other things, all that there's other things you want to try like. That's an important part of growing on and you do what you don't want to do, I think, in my view, is get to two thousand and thirty and then that your first opportunity there, and not to say you can't build something amazing from scratch the age of fifty, but if you have that opportunity earlier on, go and try out things. That was a very long winded AAR, sir, that's that's that of perpect. I think it. You know, it was complicated. A lot of people try to give simple, you know, answers, but some things you need a longer answer for. And then the second extra would be two creators out there. What would be your, you know, advice for trying to getting the foundation built for turning their freelancing into, you know, more of what underpins all about, you know for sure? Okay, so this is super simple. There is like this is a simple answer. I got. The one thing I wish I was told when I first started, and the one thing I tell everyone they start, is you're not a profession anymore. You know a Crofts, you know a skill, that is not the thing that defines you're a business that does of that craft or skill. You're a business. You don't sell your skills. Your Business that sells a solution. Your skill set is a tool box that you can use to help clients and customers solve problems, but it is the solution that you sell, the context within which your skills are valuable, and not the skills themselves. And if you can get over that one hurdle. You're at top five percent of freelance already, but it is building the business that is going to be valuable. And then the second part of that is, once you understand that and you appreciate that, come buy on the pins course and I'll give you a code to your listeners can get hands off if they buy it through throughcast book. Come and do the course. Like most of these courses are like two grand and they teach you terrible things like this is everything you need to build a big bank, free hours business to come and come and learn how to set a solution effectively. I am behind this, so I'm with you on this. I like the idea, like the whole thing and I think it's very, very much needed in our industry. So I applaud you for actually going out there and doing it, honestly, for for a lot of other people who's going to need it. So yeah, of course. My O for the listeners, where can they like? socials, everything, where's? Where can they find you guys? On the pin? Type? It on the pin is called Finding Inn Seo. You'll find US instagram. It's a facebook, websites on the pinoccom email info on the pincom getting taught to get involved. That's it for this week. As always, thanks for tuning in. Don't forget the subscribe so... get notified when a new episode drops. Plus follow us on Instagram at it's got to be creative podcast, and subscribe for Youtube Channel for exclusive video clips. Well, that's it. This is stay of their wheel. Signing on.

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